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Ray Dalio finally says, "I have some Bitcoin." This is the story of Coindesk. Fears of an approaching global debt crisis have forced the world's leading hedge fund manager to stop doubting Bitcoin and start dealing with it. Ray Dalio said the US dollar is on the verge of devaluation to levels last seen in 1971, and that China has jeopardized the dollar's role as the world's reserve currency in such an environment.
Bitcoin, with its gold-like properties, looks increasingly attractive as a means of savings, Dalio said. Of all the people whose firm started 2021 with $10.9 billion in assets under management, making it the world's largest hedge fund with $ 101 billion in assets under management , sorry, not $ 10.1 billion, $101 billion under management, and he said, "I have some Bitcoin," Dalio said in the middle of an interview with CoinDesk's chief content officer Michael Casey.
Dalio's off-the-cuff remark to CoinDesk about owning Bitcoin is the closest he's come to an endorsement to date. However, in the same conversation, he reiterated his concerns, worried that governments, fearful of Bitcoin's competition for their state-owned monetary system, could crack down on its owners.
Bitcoin's biggest risk is its success. Dalio warns Gerard. Oh, who am I to doubt Ray Dalio? But if governments could do anything about Bitcoin, they would have done it already. Do you think so? Do you think so? Absolutely. So you think if they could, they would have done it by now? Is this your position on this issue?
Yes. The more I get into cryptocurrency, the more I get excited. I am very passionate about cryptocurrency. I am a big fan of theirs. I got into it about four or five years ago. And I had to express my opinion on my podcast, " Antagonistic America." I had, uh, a crypto expert, one of the first miners in America, Eric Gallison, on " Yes." And he was explaining to me the blockchain and what exactly it takes to actually get involved in Bitcoin at this point, with over 100 million users worldwide.
Someone would have to hack over 51 million different individual servers in different countries. This should have happened. This should happen as a world government. The only way that, for example, Bitcoin could be, you know, essentially, hacked, or even Ethereum, even more so, that could be hacked, is if, say, China conquered the world and took over the entire world, and then they could take and get every single one of those 100 million-plus servers, and they would have to do it individually.
And that would suggest that then they took control of all the satellites, they had all the cloud space. This is functionally impossible to do. I know, um, I know your guy Dan Pnyena might disagree with this, but I fully support the future of cryptocurrency , and I think it's not exactly what the banks are saying .
Look at what the banks have done in the last 6 months. Look how they entered. They have ETFs. They buy cryptocurrency, uh, in their hedges and so on. Don't worry about what they say. Worry about what they are doing. And Ray Dallio says, "I have some Bitcoin." I bet this amount... When he says "a little bit," what amount do you think it is ?
He says, " I have some bitcoins." How much do you think "sum" is worth to Ray Dalio? He is worth 20 for 20+. He's one of those guys who says "a little bit of bitcoin." He might have $10 million worth of Bitcoin. That's some Bitcoin for Ray Dalio. So, you think it's $10 million? I don't know. I'm just saying.
What do you think is the " amount" for him? The guy is worth 20. What is "a little"? I think it's an ever-increasing amount. Let me put it this way. So, that's it...Do you think it's more or less than 10 million? More. More than 10 million, more than 50. Okay. So, roughly $10 to $50 million – how much is that?
It might not even be 10 million. What is 1% of his net worth? First, if someone wanted to know how many bitcoins they had, someone could dig deeper and find out how many bitcoins the guys had. Did you see that they found BuzzFeed, found Joe Biden's Venmo? By the way, BuzzFeed found Joe Biden's Venmo.
I don't want to get off topic, but let's digress. BuzzFeed, gender studies students at BuzzFeed, took 10 minutes to find the Venmo account of our president and his 150 friends. How many were there? What was the deal? It was a public Venmo account, and they, and it had people on it who paid him and people who didn't , and then they asked the White House for comment, and they deleted it.
They took him away. So, that was his question, could you , if these people... Wow. So, again, we're talking about concerns about Bitcoin. Well, governments are going to manipulate Bitcoin. Why are you worried about the President of the United States being a public Venmo? That, you know, he was found carelessly.
Coming back to you. You don't think the government is going to step in and try to regulate... I think they even tried Bitcoin. Do you think it's done? I think they were trying to go crazy. How do you regulate international currency? How do you regulate? They will figure it out. Believe me, when they try...
They can't. So, that's all. They finished. You said they're not going to regulate anymore, and that's it . You can't beat them with them. They're going to, they're going to get attached to this . But here's the thing . That's the thing. So for me, if you think about it, here's Ray Dalio. If you say they can't...I've been saying the same thing for years about the cryptocurrency Bitcoin.
I say the same thing . I say technology is great. It's moving in that direction. Phenomenal. There's nothing you can do about it. This will stay here for a long time. And I will never bet against the private sector on the government side. I understand that. But I would also never bet against the public sector wanting to regulate everything it can get its hands on.
Everything he can get. They do it so that they can control as much as they want, for example, now. One of the things that's coming up right now is Biden talking about how we shouldn't be driving all the cars that run on gasoline, gasoline cars, $460 a gallon in California when you sent me there, so $460 a gallon when you go to California, and that was exactly what it was a few days ago, two or three days ago, right?
So, for them, you know what the government can do if they really want to: can they raise taxes to $10 to raise the price of gasoline to $10 a gallon? Can they do it? Perhaps. The government... Can the government do this? Yes. If they want to... Can the government do it? They can limit the supply. They can limit the supply.
What else can they do? What else can they do to raise taxes? What else can they do? The government can dictate how you spend your money. And you should view taxes and government as a compensation plan. No matter how they adjust the compensation plan. We as consumers, we as citizens, we react to any tax plan they propose.
OK? So if they don't want us to spend money on gas because, well, they want us to drive electric cars, you know, they can raise it to $10 a gallon. What happens then? Behavior is changing . So regulating Bitcoin or cryptocurrency doesn't mean we're watching you. They can add the most stupid taxes on it to do everything they can to control it.
Their way of regulating is not the same as regulating other products. We're not talking about how Joseph Kennedy once said, "Hey, you guys are selling stocks. You guys sell mutual funds. That's what we do." Roosevelt brought in Joseph Kennedy, because it was Joseph Kennedy who manipulated the market, all this, you know, the crisis of 1929.
He said, "I want you to come and help me." He says, “You know what? This is what we will do next. Anyone who wants to sell any securities and touches cash must have their fingerprints taken." What are you talking about? You guys needed to go. People went to New York to get their fingerprints taken so they could sell stocks, bonds, and mutual funds, right?
In those days, you know, people still took fingerprints. No one touches the cash, but if you are getting a securities license, you still need to be fingerprinted. This is not about the regulation you might be thinking of. I think the regulation they could implement is very creative. One of them could be high taxes.
It's just a thought. It depends on, for example, what kind of security is it? Is this currency? Is this a savings tool? Is this a product ? Whatever category it falls into , it will be regulated by something. Whether it's the SEC or FINRA, those who regulate commodities like to say that they're never going to impose any regulation.
I think that's very clear. I want to make it clear that this is not what I mean. I agree with you both that they will try. They tried. Part of this increase in capital gains relates specifically to cryptocurrency income. But, first of all , the retail investor is not very deep into cryptocurrency. Less than 1% of the population owns cryptocurrency now.
And look at the rating. Then again, it's only been 10 years. Look at the cost of this. This doesn't have any tangible value yet. You don't buy things. You don't use things every day. And look at the price. So in 10 years, when 5% of the population has cryptocurrency and you can go into a store and use it, think about what the price will be.
So if they want to impose a tax on cryptocurrency sales once it becomes a tangible currency, I can understand them trying to get their share. But they are doing it now. They are trying to do this through capital gains. And what happened was that a secondary market emerged. Truly smart people don't sell their cryptocurrency and take losses on capital gains.
Yes, we are borrowing for this, Pompiano said. Most cryptocurrency traders don't sell. They keep 90% of their assets, they don't sell because that's when you pay taxes. Of course, I take out loans against my cryptocurrency. So there's a secondary exchange where you can literally invest your cryptocurrency, and then you take out a loan against your cryptocurrency, pay it back, and keep your cryptocurrency.
So I can get value from it by keeping it, right? And I don't pay capital gains on it. This is a secondary market that has developed. There are people in this industry who have created this product specifically to circumvent regulations, specifically to circumvent federal and international overreach requirements.
So part of the reason I love cryptocurrency so much is because it's more than a physical blockchain, it's the future of technology. When you talk about Ethereum, don't think of Ethereum as a coin or a token. Imagine it as the World Wide Web of 1980. This is blockchain, a system of how you're going to create interaction , social interaction , business interaction.
If it's infrastructure, right ? And I don't want to understand what exactly is starting to happen, but Ethereum is starting to gain momentum, as many experts emphasize, Ethereum is much more advanced in terms of technology and use, in the long term, than Bitcoin. In the long run, do you think Ethereum could...
I'm not saying, I'm just saying what the experts are saying. See what you need to do to close on your home. Everything you talked about: the days you need to commit, the money in the escrow account, the payments you need to make, the proof of purchase you need to have, and then the documents you need to sign – all of that now becomes one token with Ethereum.
You pay for the house with Ethereum, and the contract is on the token. All this is there. So it doesn't seem like a big amount to people, but how much is a day of your time worth right now? How much is your day worth? So, if Ethereum can save you an entire day, how much is it worth to you? Unlike traditional document signing, who knows if it can be forged ?
I mean, it's outdated. Now we are like a horse and cart. This is an analogue. Ethereum is the future, my friend. There is so much that goes beyond specifications, speculative investing. This is fun. These are gambling games. This is cool and this is new. But technology is a game. But I'll tell you something.
So, here's the real argument, if you think about it. The fact that Dalio is saying this, I think Dalio is hedging. On the one hand, he says it could happen. Regulation may be introduced. On the other hand, he says that this cannot happen . I mean, you know what if that doesn't happen? But I'm also going to buy some stocks.
By buying a put or call option. You buy options, you know, you use what you buy to protect yourself, stop losses or whatever. Maybe you're playing, playing, playing both ways. But, by the way, Dalio never said he was playing both sides. He just never said it . So the fact that a brilliant guy like him, ...I sat with him, I had great conversations.
The guy, as brilliant as he was, said, "I have some bitcoins." He says this for a reason, so that his investors will pay attention to it. He knows that every other newspaper will write about it . So he hinted. He waited until the stock fell to half price. He bought them. I think he's smart for doing that.
But I'll tell you about the other part. I'll tell you about the other part. This other thing to think about is betting on Wall Street. Look at the Wall Street rates, right? Who did they encounter ? With everyone. With everyone. And they ruined a lot of these guys. Melvin, Melvin Capitals. They were destroyed.
What? $2.75 billion. It was a bet. Seven, seven billion. I think it's just a huge number, so much so that they had to borrow money from each other, and they closed all their short positions. That's how they are, to me , the Wall Street betting community is the crypto community. Good. And the government, the regulators, the Janet Yellens of this world, these Elizabeth Warrens of this world, they are those big hedge fund managers that the Wall Street Bets were up against.
You should know that when it happened, thank you. Thank you, dear. When it happened, you should know, not you, dear. Thanks to my wife. I know this sounds strange. Sam is leaving. He just called me, honey. My wife gave this to you. You will give it to me. So, thank you, dear, Sam. Good. Thank you, dear.
So Sam left, saying Pat called me, honey. But , uh, the HR department. Yes. But the way I see it, the way I see it, these billionaires should make one phone call, and they should just say, "I just want you to know," remember that campaign I ran for you? What was that? You can't let this happen again .
So here's the part where you think I don't understand technology. I really do n't. They...Do you think crony capitalism will disappear anytime soon? No, I know. But this is specific...You're right. But this thing is specifically set up to counteract. Oh, I understand. I understand. So I...This...But, man, and this view, this could be Aism.
I, you know , and these are some of the smartest people in the world. Don't get me wrong, but they don't understand technology. I don't dispute the fact that Warren Buffett bluntly said, "I don't invest in what I don't understand." That's another reason why I think it scares the hell out of them. Absolutely.
That's what I'm saying to make you understand. The fact that it scares the hell out of them. They say, “Hey, listen. This is too much. Slow down . What do we need to do? Hey, you know what? What card can we always draw? Regulation. Introduce some regulation. Go out and adjust them. This... Do you know what this is here?
What is it? Time, baby. He is invincible. They can be as rich as they want . Their time is running out. But it's not time yet. Listen, there are certain... Okay, so I worked in the health insurance business 18, 19 years ago, selling Health Net, selling, you know, Blue Cross, Blue Shield health insurance.
OK. And health insurance is actually a good business to be a part of 20 years ago. Here's how it works . So, just assuming you have a book of business...There were guys who made half a million dollars a year playing golf 5 days a week. Why? Because once you build a block of business, you earn 10-15% of the bonus every month.
So, if you're paying $1,000 a month for your family's premium, you know what? How much do I earn? One hundred dollars. But that's a hundred dollars every month. So, 10 years later, you build a block of business, you're making $30, $40, $50,000 every month. And then what appears? Obamacare. When Obamacare comes along , you know what happens?
Obamacare now says, “Here’s what we do. "Here are our plans." And then you have free enterprise competing with the government for contracts. They can do everything they can to create new laws and regulations that will hurt everyone else. When you compete directly with the government, the government has a card that you don't have.
This card is about us creating the rules. You play by our rules. And the government specifically doesn't like this. They don't like people like Elon Musk. They don't like people like Trump. They don't like the crypto community. Do you know why? Because they say, "Hey, go to hell." And they don't like it when people say, " Go to hell." They like it when people say, “We need you.
The world wouldn't be the same without you. Thank you very much. Oh my God, Hunger Games syndrome. You are so ...Hey, we bow to you." So, the crypto community is not tied to anyone. Yes, some dogs love their leash. That's all. In any case, we'll see what happens here. And to finish this off, to mark this with a story from our friend Dalio, he said a famous thing in Davos, Switzerland, a year and a half ago, just before the coronavirus hit.
He said: “Cash is garbage. " Get away from cash." Yes, he said that. So I wouldn't be surprised if he diversified his investments, got rid of cash, and bought some cryptocurrency or Bitcoin. Even if he's not a firm believer in this, we know he doesn't necessarily believe in cash. And this time was perfect for him.
By the way, I agree. So if you enjoyed this short segment from the podcast we did, here's another short segment to watch. Or, if you want to watch the entire podcast, click here. Take care of yourself, everyone. See you later.
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