저자: MoisheMana · 외국인
요약 보기
첫 줄 결론: 모이세 마나는 와인우드 포트폴리오 매각(11억 달러)과 마이애미 다운타운 대규모 매입을 통해 '개발자'가 아닌 '커뮤니티 빌더'를 자처하며, 개별 자산 가격보다 생태계 전체의 가치 창출을 강조했으나 구체적인 가격 전망은 제시하지 않았다. [인터뷰 배경 및 와인우드 매각] 마나는 17년간 와인우드 부동산 포트폴리오를 구축했으며, 약 5,000만~7,000만 달러를 투입해 11억 달러에 켄 그리핀(Ken Griffin)과 카네기멜런대학에 매각했다고 밝혔다. 진행자는 마이애미 개발업자들이 해당 포트폴리오를 약 5억 달러 수준으로 추산했다고 언급하며 가격 정당화를 물었다. [가치 창출 철학] 마나는 자신을 개발자가 아닌 생태계 구축자로 정의하며, 건물 가치는 그 위에 무엇을 만드느냐에 달려 있다고 주장했다. 예시로 뉴욕 미트패킹 지구(약 600만~700만 달러 매입, 5억 6천만 달러 매각), 저지시티 Monaco Temple(창고 매입 후 4년 뒤 건물 가치 1억 달러 평가) 등을 들었다. 또한 일반 개발자들은 평당 가격 등 비교 사례에 의존해 사고하며 '틀 안에서만 생각한다'고 비판했다. [다운타운 마이애미 계획] 마나는 현재 다운타운 마이애미에 약 80개 부동산을 보유한 최대 임대인이라고 밝혔다. 목표는 다운타운을 '미국에서 가장 멋진 동네', 즉 '차세대 미트패킹 지구'로 만드는 것이다. 이를 위해 레스토랑(블루리본 등 언급, 발타자르는 무산), 예술·패션 공간을 선별하고 있다고 했다. 구체적 완공 시점이나 수익 목표는 제시하지 않았다. [역사적 법원 건물 및 행정 이슈] 역사적 법원 건물 매입 경쟁(마나 측 500만 달러 제시 vs 루셀 갈바트 3,500만 달러 평가)에 대해 마나는 보존과 생태계 가치를 강조했다. 또한 시 행정의 과도한 관료주의, 인허가 지연(2~3년), 정치인에 대한 기부 문제 등을 비판했다. 시장 에일린 일리건(Eileen Higgins)과의 관계도 언급되었으나 협력이 거의 없었다고 주장했다. [투자 조언 및 세금] 외국 자본 투자자들에게는 스프레드시트만으로 부동산을 사지 말고 현지 파트너와 동네 흐름을 이해하라고 조언했다. 세금 측면에서는 연방세 약 23%를 언급하며 상업 건물 매입을 통한 세금 교환(tax swap) 전략을 설명했다. [종합] 전반적으로 시장 전망이나 특정 자산·종목에 대한 가격 방향성 발언은 없었으며, 부동산 장기 가치와 도시 개발 철학이 중심이었다.
다듬은 글
I am not a developer. With all due respect to all developers, I find this an insult. We think like idiots. I am a Sagittarius by horoscope. Sagittarius symbolizes the horse. A horse can run until it falls. I want you to answer the question because you are starting to speak on the record. There is a lot to tell.
Greetings, friends. Welcome to another edition of "Coffee Talk." Today we have a special edition of Coffee Talk, and I know I say this all the time, but today I'm sitting down with Moishe Mana, a legendary visionary, bridge builder, and neighborhood creator. He recently made the iconic sale of his Wynwood real estate portfolio for $1.1 billion to Ken Griffin and Carnegie Mellon University for the campus.
We've already talked about this a lot . And I want to know more about what Moishe has planned for the future. What are the next big projects? What next district is he going to create and what motivates him? He's already a billionaire, so what motivates a person with billions in the bank ? Moishe, thank you for coming today.
Thank you. Thank you for visiting. Of course. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. You spent 17 years building this portfolio in Wynwood. You saw something that many people didn't see, that's obvious. And you spent about $50 million on... You know, $50 to $70. $ 50 to $70 million on building the portfolio.
You eventually sold it to Griffin and Carnegie Mellon for $1.1 billion . I've talked to a bunch of developers here in Miami, people who are investing and buying land in South Florida. And they said that the best numbers they could come up with, and that would be a big exaggeration, were half a billion for that portfolio.
You sold it for $1.1 billion . This is bought by someone who has too much money, or someone who thinks, " Look, I can pay an extra premium price and make something worthwhile out of this." How do you justify the $1.1 billion price tag? You know, I just can't believe what you just told me . That's why I tell people that I'm not a developer.
I am not a developer. And for me, sorry to say that, with all due respect to all developers, I find this an insult. Because I can't get mad at them enough, you know? Yes. Because they are so stuck in their own framework. Thinking within the box, they don't see what's outside it . I don't build buildings, I build an ecosystem.
And what is the value of the building or land? It's really what you build on it . The building can be used as a warehouse, and I can turn it into retail space. But there is a "naked" one: if it fell into the hands of another developer, it would cost, perhaps, 100 million. But regular people look at the price per square foot, you know, the price per square foot based on analogs, based on what's selling.
This, this is their argument, right? Like, show me a piece of land in the middle of the coolest neighborhood in America that we helped develop and became a catalyst for this change. Where can you find it? Where can you find this? Well, you definitely created an atmosphere, created an environment, supported artists.
I help you more. Yes. That's why I created value. Meatpacking. I bought the building for $7 million, $6 million. Eventually sold for $560 million. This is the Meatpacking District in New York, in Manhattan, yes. Monaco Temple in Jersey City. Good. Abandoned warehouses. For each warehouse, I received an estimate of $5 million, or $86 million .
Yes. 4 years after that, I sold Monaco Temple, one building was valued at 100 million. Yes. So, this is the value you have to create. I created this value . Yes. And that's exactly what it is. And that was the problem I had with investors, developers, and everyone else when I was trying to raise money for my vision .
Mm. They want to buy a piece of property from me or a building inside what I'm building. I tell these guys: I baked a cake. I could, I, I baked a cake. You ask me for sugar and dough. Go buy your own sugar, buy your own dough. It's cheaper than trying to buy a piece of ready-made cake. Because I invest within the community.
I invest in everything worth doing : technology, fashion, art, people. This is the energy I gather within the community. That's why I say I'm a community builder , not a developer. Well, in short, Ken Griffin comes not to buy. He is coming to tear down everything you have built and build something new there.
So he's not buying the community. Eventually, he buys the land. But show me where you can buy land in the middle of the coolest neighborhood in America. Mm. 70 acres to put it all together. Now it's 35. Show me where you can do that in the coolest neighborhood in America. Yes. Can you go to Silicon Valley today, build and buy 30 acres for a billion dollars?
In Meatpacking. Google bought a building, which was sold for 2 million, and then for 100 million to a friend of mine. That $100 million turned into $2 billion in sales. Yes, 2.1 billion. 2.1. Yes. That's my problem with developers. Sorry, I'm not like you. I don't think like you. And you are very limited in scope.
Many times you think like idiots. Sorry to say this, and I'm saying it out loud. Mhm. When you ask me questions like that, it's because they don't understand that if they invest in a bigger project, a project with a vision, they could achieve more. Yes, but not everyone has a vision. I mean, and actually, actually, I gave them a discount, and you know what?
I didn't argue too much, and the idea was to do a deal for a billion and a half dollars, but yeah, we eventually agreed, I mean , it was very small talk. Yes, because, again , for me, it wasn't just a real estate deal. It was a deal where I saw the future, what was coming, what was happening in Miami.
Mhm. But you had already applied your vision before in the Meatpacking District, you did the Meatpacking District where there were prostitutes and drug dealers, you came into this market and started buying buildings, which made a lot of sense because it was connected to the West Village. You know, that made a lot of sense.
If you came If you came to Wynwood, you would do the same thing . Did you see anything in Jersey City ? In Jersey City with Mana Contemporary. A 2 million square foot art space has been created. Look at Journal Square today. Everything is built up with skyscrapers . Why? So, you actually outline an area, go there, and start buying up buildings.
What makes a neighborhood or a place attractive to you, that makes you say, "This is where I'm going to create a neighborhood or a community"? Okay, first of all, it depends on the city , it depends on the location. There are many other opportunities in Latin America. What is your matrix? You actually find a "pocket" within the city limits.
But you have to understand, this is a long-term perspective. This is not true, and this is exactly what I see in developers, bankers, and, you know, funds. They want to see real estate, investments, and what profit they will make in 2 or 3 years. They can't see 10 or 15 years ahead. Yes. They don't do that.
I'll tell you a story. This is, well...in Jersey City. This guy is the third largest developer, you know, in Canada, Mark Mandelbaum. Mhm. The third largest developer, you know, in Canada. And he came to my Mana Contemporary. Yes , no, he came to my office here. And said he was a good client of Mana Contemporary.
I used art, both of those things. I was constantly in Jersey City. And he says, "I bought a property next to you." I asked, " How much did you pay for it ?" He replied, "27, 40 million dollars." Some crazy number. Yes. It's a good thing I was sitting on a chair. I almost fell off my chair. Yes. And I said, "Why did you do that?" I mean, I wouldn't give 5-6 million dollars for that .
Yes. He says, "With you around, how can I go wrong?" That... That's a great compliment. It seems like this happens, it happens to you often . I mean... It's been 10 years. He got his money back tenfold. Well, you just see it, you saw it happen... the bank. You saw this happen recently with the historic courthouse in Miami.
You thought the property was worth 5 million. Russell Galbat believed it was worth 35 million. Uh, I mean, I'll say you thought it was 5 million. Russell believed it was worth 35 million. This is a big discrepancy between two buyers bidding for a building. What, what...What does he see in this property that makes him think it's worth 35 million , when you said it's not worth more than 5?
Okay, first of all, Russell, I love you and I didn't mean to offend you, okay? And Russell is a great guy. He is a very intelligent person. The courthouse is a different story. Russell wants to treat this like a real estate deal again. Yes. He wants to build a big tower behind it to take advantage of the existing land and destroy the entire ecosystem, all the beauty of the courthouse.
Of course. The courthouse is historic. You want to keep it . And what he also wants to do is he wants to get a loan, maybe for $50 million, so the court can have it. Yes. So my $5 million is much more than what he was offering, to begin with. Okay, but I want to keep it, I want to protect it. At one point, I considered building a school there for children, but I saw the problems there.
But there are a lot of things we can do with it, leaving it as a neighborhood facility for art, fashion, anything I can do, because there's not much you can do on most of the floors, and the maintenance is very expensive. M-hm. This will not bring me profit. Yes. But for us it looks like a way to make money .
Yes. Yes. So he gets 35, but the land and everything else the city and county are going to give him this and that. So these are incomparable things. Yes. Yes. OK. So that's a different matter, you know. I mean, I need to, I have this downtown, and I have to make sure it becomes the coolest neighborhood in America.
You are now the largest landlord in downtown Miami. Yes. You have over 80 buildings. You haven't slowed down . You just spent over $368 million, maybe more, in 2026 on buying buildings. Plus or minus a million dollars. Yes, the year is 2026. No, no. In general, you know. I think over $600 million. In 2026, by my calculations, you spent $368 million.
Maybe I'm not keeping track of it. So you still believe in buying, merging, and building ecosystems, you know, looking to the future. And now you're doing it with downtown Miami, right? Do you own all these buildings? What's the plan? So you don't have to worry about Winwood anymore, unfortunately, because I like what you did with Winwood.
You encouraged artists to come there. You encouraged talent to come there. You allowed exhibitions to be held in the conference center and you really built up the place. But what is the plan for downtown Miami? Okay, as far as Wynwood is concerned, we have to give credit to Tony Goldman, because he came to Wynwood first.
M-hm. And may his soul rest in peace. And I want to thank Tony, because he was the one who started it, but then the recession hit, everyone ran away , and so, I took it all on myself and continued. And it's not just my merit, because in the end, many other people contributed to making Winwood Winwood.
I was definitely the main driver of Wynwood becoming Wynwood. Okay, just to clarify the situation. It also helps that you name everything after yourself . So all of this —Mana is that, Mana is that, which is wonderful. OK. So, uh, as far as you know, again, downtown, what's the vision, where we're going and what we want to do.
Uh , now that I do n't have to worry about Winwood anymore. I have some property there, which is perfectly normal. Uh, now I'm focused on downtown, and downtown is the historic district, the Miami Historic District. And, uh, first of all, again, no developer would buy such buildings without negotiations.
Yes. I bought these buildings, bought, bought, bought, without asking any questions, you know? Show me at least one developer who would do that. Show me a developer who would do even a minimal inspection just by driving by . Of course? So I think differently, I act differently. Today , you know, I don't even see much value in what I created.
If anything, I might even be at a loss. Yes. But I'm looking at it 10, 15 years ahead, I'm looking at it much further ahead . I look at the impact this is having on Miami. So I was the one who designed the street. Mm. And, to remind people, I designed it . We were the ones who designed it. Isn't that right, Joe?
Design a street, invest money in design and everything else. It cost about one hundred to one hundred and twenty thousand dollars at the time. And then I went to Imenas. To whom? Name. Mm. Mayor Imenas at the time was, uh... And I convinced him to give us the first 7 million dollars. To make the cover and implement the vision we proposed.
So you actually needed to do the covering? So there was no existing coverage there? No, are you kidding? Yes. They were preparing some terrible plan, and I said—we stopped it. Do you have any images you can share to show what it looked like before? Oh my God, well, I, you know, I mean , we can find it, Joe.
But, by the way, this paving was from scratch, yes. It was me, we were the ones who went and chose this brick, you know? And then I went to Francis when he became mayor. And Francis gave us the rest of the money, and there was a big amount missing for infrastructure, etc., FPL. I called Francis at 12 o'clock at night.
He picked up the phone. Yes. And we eventually called FPL, and you know, Francis said, "Thank you, Francis, for everything you've done for Miami." And he did a great job promoting Miami. He is a good promoter. Yes. And he brought a lot of great players to Miami. He did his good. But there are no more pedestrians in Miami.
That's the problem. So we needed to make a street. Yes. So, I was pretty patient. It's taken nine years, and we're still not done. And anyway, they have already spent part of the budget that we allocated to the end . And now I need to go, fight and argue with them. Yes. Of course? It took time to put all these buildings together.
Imagine you buy one building and then have to buy another. For 11 years, I just bought, bought, bought, without any questions. But it took time. Just imagine how to get financing. At that time, I also didn't have all the finances to do it. But it wasn't a problem of finances, not a problem of finances, but the idea of acquiring this building, and and and completing this assembly in 11 years.
Okay, they criticize me too. Why are n't you building? Why do you want me to build? What do you want me to do? I mean, you want me to build cheap housing and and and and and create the same thing you have here, the same thing from the same thing? So, we need to do this. Look, my Miami World, it took them about 30 years, they've been working on it since 1990.
30 years, yes. 30 years. Yes. I've only been doing this for 11 years, 12 years. But they had a lot more help than you did. Ha? They had a lot more help than you did. Yes. You did almost everything yourself. So why, when you find yourself in situations where only a few million dollars are needed, don't you just write the check yourself?
Wouldn't that be faster? For what? Well, for example, for the curb, that $7 million that was needed for sidewalks and things like that. First, it was n't about money. It was an implementation problem. There was money. Yes. But the execution was terrible. Of course. So, there were no problems with money.
So it's more of a city planning issue than...Yes, I pay $ 8, $9, $10 million a year in property taxes here alone. Yes. Here, for all these objects. Wow. Where does this money go? Nowhere. They are going nowhere. You know, to just demolish this building down there, because it's next to the train , it would cost $6-7 million, and we have to do it by hand, you know.
Yes. So, I mean, there are a lot of complications, and it's easier to build a building than to do a renovation, and there are a lot of problems and bureaucracy in the city. And let me tell you, you know the problem of how much business, you know, restaurants... I think it's easier for you to just pick up the phone.
You're probably calling the mayor at 12 midnight. So are permits and licenses still a challenge for someone like you? You make me laugh. You know, the mayor of Miami has never come to my office before. Yes. Eileen Iligan has never been to my office. Mm. Okay. I mean, I get zero help. On the contrary, many times in the past, and even now, I don't know...they try to make everything more complicated.
They may try to make it more complicated, and remember, these laws haven't changed since the 60s. What do you think... Since the 50s, since the 60s. Why do you think the mayor isn't giving you the support you think you deserve? I mean, you obviously run a large part of the city, and a very popular one at that.
So why doesn't the mayor work with you more closely, considering you're the largest landlord in downtown Miami right now? First, to Eileen's credit, she is already implementing some changes. Mayors in Miami generally have no power. They have zero power. And there are also commissioners . And committees and all sorts of things that make it very difficult to get anything done.
But the main problem we face when we want to implement any project, open a restaurant or bar, is 3 years, sometimes 2 years. Of course. This is terrible. This can't be good for business. I thought Florida was a business- oriented state. That's right. That's the problem. Talk to any of these restaurateurs.
How long did it take them to open the restaurant? Oho. You know, I mean , even down here. We paved the road . We did absolutely everything. Do you understand? They don't let us put chairs on the sidewalk. Yes. It took us, I don't know, a year to do it. Right. I mean, to make them do it . Oh, or combine two buildings because you want to do one project.
I need a property title check, I'm waiting 6 months to a year. Tell me what the plan is for downtown Miami. Good. You've kind of accumulated all these, how many buildings do you have now ? 100 buildings? 80 buildings? About 80 real estate properties. 80 properties in downtown Miami. You are the largest landlord in downtown Miami.
You brought them together. You said you're not a developer, you're more of a community builder. What is the plan for these 80 objects you collected? I'm saying that I'm not a developer, in the usual sense of the word, right? We develop, we build, we do it. But when I say " developer," I mean that developer is thinking within patterns.
I have yet to see a developer investing in technology, fashion, art, and the neighborhood. But what are you planning to do in downtown Miami ? So, okay, downtown again. I think. The center here will be the next, the next Meatpacking District. This is your vision for him. This is my vision. And how do you plan to achieve this?
It will be the biggest, it will be the coolest neighborhood in America. And that's why it takes time. So we exercise patience, and that's why it takes money, you know. And so I have to...Listen. Some city officials are asking why they won't come and help because they want to see new buildings and businesses come up.
I'm not going to do that, everything is already built there, you know. But what will be yours, like when you created Meatpacking, you had Milk Studios, which attracted a lot of artists, fashionistas, and photographers there. What will be the anchor that will transform downtown Miami into the Meatpacking District of Miami?
You know, it's not... First of all, I didn't... I started the whole process. I was the main catalyst, the main one, you know, when no one was doing anything, that's it. This is what ...This was my school, you know? What we did there, and we brought the world of Calvin Klein here, we brought Jeff Koons, tattoo parlors, Phillips Auction House.
I...it was...it was what became a real catalyst for that area at that time and had such an impact. So I don't think it will be just one tenant. You know, we are already selecting restaurants. That's why I personally select restaurants. Mhm. Okay. What restaurants will you have? Any famous ones? Yes.
For example? Blue Ribbon. Okay. This is great. We almost reached an agreement with Balthazar, but at the last minute the guy refused, even though I had been working with him for a year and a half. That would be... And he backed away. Yes, he refused... He refused because he has Netflix. Oh, Netflix.
Yes. So, he had Netflix , and stuff like that. And I have a few more. Okay, I don't want to start, but, again, you know, when you look at Miami, at the restaurant scene, I think we have a huge problem with restaurants here. Mhm. They build these huge facilities. Yes. They turn the music on full blast.
Yes. Prices that come from an unknown source. By the way, 25% higher than in New York. Prices... And 25% tips for waiters. With all due respect to the waiters, but what is this ? That is, my check is for $1,000. I need to pay a $250 tip. Yes. Give me a break, you know. Who can really afford that? Yes.
That means we have a problem. Yes. We have a problem. That's why you see restaurants opening and closing, reopening and closing again. There should be reasonable prices so that people can come, feel comfortable , and not feel pressured by tips, problems, and yes, by music. We want to come after work at 6 or 7 pm, sit, talk, and enjoy good food at a reasonable price.
Not that the music is blaring overhead or anything like that. Can you control that when business comes into the space? I mean, once the business is already coming in, you can't dictate to them whether you want music or not. Of course, that's why you're curating. Yes. You choose the right partners . You create the DNA of restaurants, determine the plans, what and how.
Uh, that's why we do, well, look. I want you to visit the Nikola Tesla Innovation Hub and see what we've done there. I'll show you some photos from there. I mean, a few videos. Mhm. You will see what buildings we are building there, what kind of lobby there is, and what the conditions are. I want you to see the Mana Fashion building we're talking about—the cool objects we're creating.
The entire Mana Fashion building is dedicated to fashion, new designers, and galleries. Yes. I mean, who else would do that? Nobody would do that, you know? Because you're essentially subsidizing all of this, right? You subsidize many artists. I remember when I first came to this building, I think it was about 5 years ago .
You allowed, you know , tech developers and engineers to come and use the space for free, right? Was it before today? Are you kidding? I mean, we held 250 events downstairs, because you see, it's again much larger and more complex. But I'm saying that you curated it, by allowing these people to be there, you created this ecosystem.
We have 35,000 people in the Mana Tech organization that we work with. We had 250 events last year. Technology companies are coming from Latin America to network, collaborate, and enter the market. We have French Tech. I mean, we're doing so much , and we're in the process of realizing this vision of a united America that we talked about yesterday.
And this is important. So, show me someone else who talks about development, okay? I'm walking past the Nikola Tesla building with my friend who knows me very well, he's a close friend of mine and a very wealthy person who hangs out with a lot of rich people and stuff like that. So, I go with him and say, " Zevik, you know, the Nikola Tesla building cost me three times more than I was originally told." Yes.
He says, "Moshe, I know you, you always know how to make 1 + 1 equal four." So, yes, call me three times more expensive. But what I'm doing in the building and how I'm going to lease it, you know, one high-tech outlet will pay for the entire neighborhood, plus a lot more . So, Moishe, I want to make sure we have time to ask questions, and I want you to answer them, because you're starting to...yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I just need you to focus. There's a lot to talk about, you know. I know, I know, but just focus on the question and then we'll get to everything else. So, going back to the Griffin deal, besides your team and Griffin's team, who else deserves credit for making this deal happen? Okay, it was Maurice Ferret who brought them here.
Who? Who is this? Maurice Ferret. He is the son of that famous Ferre, who in the 70s declared Miami the capital of Latin America. So, he brought Ken into the office. Well, Ken already knew about it. So Maurice was the one who brought him here and said, "Moses, we're here." I work with Maurice, and Maurice created two " unicorns" here in Miami.
And he is a wonderful entrepreneur, a developer. I mean, I take...and we're doing something great together, we're partners in some technologies. Yes. And we're going to introduce them to Nick. So, he...Maurice gets a lot of credit for that, outside of your team and Griffin's team. Maurice He received recognition for bringing them here.
OK. Who else? So, they came in, I, you know. That's a big, big part of it. But who else, who else do you think deserves credit for making this deal happen? Uh, sorry if I mess this up. But was there anyone from the city who participated, or perhaps from the state? Zero involvement in this. Zero participation from the city.
Well, you... you and we were always afraid that they would make things more complicated. Well, you know, we were always sure that they were going to... Are they going to get a nice big tax bill as a result of this? So, it's good for them . it depends, because it's a university, and there's a whole history there, so.
In Wynwood, you created a space for artists. You created a community for them . You encouraged them to come here. You created space for them. And now this space has been bought by, you know, Carnegie Mellon University, which is going to open a technology lab and hub here. This, you know, is the complete opposite of art.
This is art in a different sense. What do you think will happen to the community you've created here? The artistic community you built. Here? Yes. Of course they will... We will make it even bigger. In Wynwood? I'm talking about Wynwood. Oh, what will happen to this community? They will have to move to another place, as usual.
And they have to move. I already have plans for where...I already have some alternative options. Yes. We'll talk about what we're going to do with the art later, but I think the art will stay in Wynwood one way or another. And they will talk to Ken to decide what we can do. Yes. We don't want art to disappear.
That's the beauty of Wynwood. This is important. This is important. This is important. I mean, again, if you go there, to Mana Contemporary... I understand. A huge area where we have an art collection worth 15-20 billion dollars . The Whitney Museum is currently expanding its space by nearly 100,000 square feet.
Wow. I mean, just think about it . Who would have thought? And you know what? I made Mana Contemporary against the advice of my people. Yes. I once had a bet with one of my main partners. He said, "I bet you won't succeed." That's it . When I did that, when I took a risk with the Mana Contemporary project.
Of course. So, again, I'm not trying to brag about how smart or great I am. It could have gone two ways. This is the risk you are taking. You don't need to talk about it . This, you know, is evident from your actions. This is evident from the result. This is the risk you are taking. This is the risk you are taking.
I believed in this path, and maybe sometimes you need to change direction. But if I lose something, that's okay. This is not the end of the world. This is my land. This is my school. The city approved a 30-acre master plan for Mana Wynwood back in 2016. Yes. What part of this plan was carried out? Zero.
Was no part of the plan implemented? Zero. Then what was the point of getting that master plan? Okay. from the city? The vision was to create a global trading center to facilitate trade between the Far East, Latin America, and North America, because Miami needed business. Do you remember 2012, 13, 14?
It was summer, then winter, and there was no business here. And people, you know, came to me asking for work, and I started to really understand what the problem was. Yes. And I said, “Okay, we need to do physical B2B. Connect Americas, showrooms, materials bank and banking services. Yes. I mean, in your showroom— legal and banking services.
So people don't need to go to China, Vietnam, or Latin America. Latin America doesn't need to travel everywhere. True. One business hub, mega- hub. And I spent years on it. Trips to China. Trips to Vietnam. Trips to Latin America. Gathering partners to participate in this whole thing. Visits to manufacturers.
Visiting people, attending various events. My team and I have invested an infinite amount of time and money into this. Yes. And at some point we even signed a twinning agreement with Qingdao. Qingdao, 20 million population, you know, a whole province. Yes. And we were the ones who organized all of this.
And then came Trump with the slogan "America First. " And you know what the Chinese told me ? They don't want to invest in the US right now. They told me that you are an unstable country. Yes. And they also withdraw their capital. They simply buy debt obligations. that you are an unstable country. And then people ask me, “So how do I travel?” How, how am I supposed to come to America if they won't let me in, you know?
So, all of this, all of this fell apart. And instead, I prepared an alternative plan. It took me 3 years, 4 years to implement it. And the whole vision, I mean, I can show it to you. It was something incredible with architects from New York, and we were about to submit the documents. And then this deal happened.
And then this deal happened . 3 years ago they entered my funny because 2 years ago I contacted you. I said, “Moshe , I heard you’re selling Mana Wynwood. And you replied: “Don't write about it. It will happen. It's not ready yet. "And that was 2 years ago. So this deal took years. 3 years. 3 years to get everything ready.
And what were the difficulties? And, like, did they haggle over the price? Or what actually made this deal three years? Well, listen, 2 years. I mean, for Ken, this is a big vision. Ken had a big vision. This is not a typical project. Tohib just had to go and try to figure it out, he knew where he was going.
It was obvious to me from day one , because when they came to my house, to my office, I knew they wanted it and they were going to take it. Yeah. There were no questions, because they had been working on it for 6 months with the auditing firm Deloitte, I think it was Deloitte, and they knew everything, so it was clear to me that they wanted it.
There are no other alternative sites. But then, you know, you have to negotiate to find universities. He did n't have a ready-made plan in pockets; it's a huge number of objects that need to be inspected and other things to find a billion dollars. Nobody has a billion dollars in their pocket to just write a check.
So I also needed their cooperation, it was a matter of negotiation, because when we sat down, the offer was a billion dollars. Yeah. And we sat down at the table, and when I said, "Okay, I agree," they looked at each other in shock, because, what's his name? Well, you know, the CEO, I mean Gerard. Mhm.
He said, "Moshi, we need this for a purpose that will help Miami tremendously." Well, Ken is investing a lot in Miami, is n't he? He's building schools, he wants talent to come here. You know, Pittsburgh is the AI capital of the East Coast, right? All the robotics goes through the University of Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon University and other universities there.
And the idea of bringing that talent, or this school here, and also skills and training here—he hopes that this can be a kind of recruiting base, so that companies will come here and hire local talent, because he wants people to stay here. I mean, he's committed to Miami for a long time. And did he explain it to you the same way , or how did he explain to you why he's so keen to have Carnegie Mellon University come here?
Well, he doesn't have to explain anything, I see it all by his actions. Ken has kind of taken Miami to a new level . This is a milestone in the history of Miami. Yeah. Nobody has invested so generously in Miami before. That's my problem with big billionaires—they sit on their money or just give it away to charity without even getting involved .
Ken—he's the type of guy who doesn't just put money in. Yeah. He takes it on himself. Right. And that deserves a lot of respect, you know . To go to Carnegie, convince them and take it on commitment . He did it personally. But what was the conviction? He wrote them a check for $2 billion and gave them the land.
The money is not enough. They need guarantees, of course. This is the Jewish nation. They need guarantees, and this is a major hub. This is not just another branch. This is a big hub that will eventually be worth over $10 billion . Yes, of course. You know. So Ken coming here gave me so much energy to continue what I was doing, because I was the one who was talking about Miami as a global hub and...
your efforts. It validated your efforts. Of course, he gave me so much energy and strength, even though I hadn't even met him at that point . The very idea that there was another guy coming in, much richer than me, much more liquid ... Yeah. ... that he believed in Miami and believed in his vision. Yeah.
And look what he's doing, you know. I have nothing but respect for that Boy, not many cities have people like Ken. There probably aren't many Kens either. So... It's kind of... you know what? There are a lot of people who have money like Ken or are close to him. What do they do with their money? Yeah, they just buy yachts.
I mean, Ken buys yachts too. But... but... Let's talk, I want to talk about your business, because we're talking about this one deal. Real estate is just one thing that you're putting together and running . You have a lot of businesses. Mana Contemporary, we talked about that before. Moshe's Moving.
News, documentaries, they're big, big businesses. They're all doing hundreds of millions of dollars a year in revenue. And they're very, you know, diverse. And at what point does all this diversification, at what point does it become an advantage to you, and at what point does it become a distraction to you?
Okay, first of all, I don't have Moshe's Moving. My name is No, I know, but I gave to its employees. Yeah, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's an employee company. Well, that means something. But you know, I'm very diversified. Mini-warehouses, document storage, digital technology—I mean, very diverse areas, you know?
Um, in technology, agriculture, everywhere . So what's your question, sir? When does this diversification become a distraction for you? Well, a lot of things that are unrelated, I liquidated, and that's how I was able to get the funds to do other things. Mhm. You know, I liquidated, sold, got rid of the company in China, the largest document management company that I had, so we did that, and I'm continuing to downsize, downsize.
And there are a few businesses that I still have to let go of. Yeah. And to focus on the vision. Because again, in my time, at my age, what's left, I have to focus more on the vision, on the legacy, on what will be after my lifetime , you know? And, you know, when you're younger, you think about the future, but at our age, you think about what's after you.
Mhm. And, yeah, definitely, but I usually let people lead. I don't get involved in the business. And I focus on what I do, you know , real estate. Developing neighborhoods, Latin America, North America, Latin America and the United States. Channeling that energy in the right direction, I travel around Latin America spreading my ideas.
Let's talk about that thing you just mentioned about legacy. You're almost 70 years old. You've spent Not yet, but nothing. Not yet, but you're almost there. You spent 17 years, you had visionary plans for Wynwood, you were willing to work on it for a longer period. For your next phase, you know, at some point age catches up with you, right?
So what do you think about that ? Do you feel the need to move faster, to accelerate things, or do you still Are you maintaining that visionary approach that you've taken with Wynwood, Meatpacking District, or your other projects? I'm a Sagittarius. This is the first time I've given you a quote like that.
I'm a Sagittarius. Sagittarius is symbolized by a horse. Yeah. A horse can run until it dies. Until it can't run anymore. Got it. Okay? So I'm going to run as long as I can. Well, that goes without saying , but do you have a pressing need to do everything faster? Look, of course, you see time, you see this and that, and I'm getting what I can.
And I, you know, I, you know, I'm also enjoying the journey. I'm enjoying, I, I, I'm enjoying the journey. It's a journey , you know, I look at it as a journey. And I'm enjoying this journey. I've been very blessed with all these obstacles and challenges that I've faced in my life. I came from Israel to America with $800 in my pocket.
Yes . And I had to learn, to do everything from scratch. And I myself, as a result, developed as a person, you know. Again, it's not about the money that I've earned over my life. It's about what I've been able to achieve and what I've influenced. And I still think that I still have a lot to do. Coming back to the inheritance again, you don't have children.
You've been a billionaire for a very long time. You just added a billion dollars that goes directly into... Well, I had a billion , but it wasn't... Yes. So what's going to happen to all this wealth that you're building and continuing to build ? What are your plans? According to my will, 85% of my money goes to charities and foundations.
And you already know about these charities and foundations. We've identified, we're trying to identify. But there are a few people close to me that we need to support. And 15% goes to friends, family, and so on. That's a significant amount of money that will go to charity. I mean, you trust because you worked really hard to raise this money.
take it with you, right? No. But you also at the same time, you know, you worked really hard to raise this money. How can you be sure that these charities and foundations are going to stay the same? It's a very difficult question, and it hurts to see how people behave when they get a responsibility, when they take it upon themselves and approach things, and they can...
It's a very difficult thing. So I'm talking to different people about how to protect, well, you know, how to protect this so that it continues. Uh... So who do you go to for advice on these new directions that you're exploring? In what sense? For example, on charity. Are there any... Well, there are different resources.
I have a friend, he's already a friend of mine today , but he heard me speaking in public, and he came up to me and said, " Moshe, I specialize in the Medici family." Oh, great. I've been researching the Medici family, and you're like the Medici. Because the Medici invested in the development of neighborhoods, right?
All of Florence was built by them, you know? Yeah. So I took that as a compliment. Yeah, sure. He works with all these rich families and he advises me, but I also have lawyers. Yeah. So I'm picking from different sources, we're constantly communicating, you know, like this ... Let's get back to real estate.
You think there's a huge amount of money coming into Miami right now from all over the world , right? So, what do you think these investors, especially foreign investors, are getting wrong about South Florida? Are they getting it wrong? Yeah. What are they getting wrong? I mean, how is it being misunderstood?
Miami real estate, the Miami real estate market by outsiders? Well, again, you know, it all depends on—not all real estate is good. Not all good real estate is bad. You have to understand how investor, where to invest in real estate. But overall, real estate is getting better and better, and the demand for it is increasing.
As long as we live in physical bodies, we need to live in brick buildings, you know? And again, it depends on where you invest: neighborhoods, locations, the project itself. Yeah. That's how they should look at it. I mean, uh... You have to know what you're doing. Yeah. What advice would you give to foreign investors who are entering this market?
How, how would you advise them to study the market and, you know, understand what they're doing? Well, it reminds me of the Koreans many years ago, I went there, I worked with Korea, and yes, I had a vision of what they should do. Yeah. I can share it later, but, well, I advised them, you know, this is a big fund, one of the biggest funds in Korea.
When you invest overseas, you have to bet on the horse that's going to win. You have to rely on someone from the local community where you invest, someone from the city you're investing in. M-hmm. Because buying real estate based solely on spreadsheets is the last thing you should do. Because it becomes a financial transaction, not a real estate deal.
M-hmm. Because there are so many factors that are not factored into the spreadsheets: where the building is, the future of the neighborhood, the future of the building itself, the future of the tenants. There's a whole set of factors that you need to know. You need to go where the trend is going, get ahead of it, not get behind it, and spreadsheets usually don't give you that picture.
So you're saying you need to be on the ground, have your "boots on the ground," so to speak, to understand everything. I'm just saying that because I see a lot of foreign capital coming in here, and they're not buying the best properties. You've never been in the condo business. Why is that? We're starting to do that .
But you did n't do it before. Because I was too busy with the big stuff. You know, again, that discipline, What I had with Wynwood, you know? I've been approached so many times about building condos. Yeah. And I said, no, we're not going to do that, because once I build one condo, my vision is over.
It would have been easy to partner with a condo developer and just build a building, but you weren't interested. Because that goes against what I was saying. Yeah. Because you can't mix culture and condos. Right. Because they need music at night. That's why I, if you look at it, the whole idea was business and entertainment.
They go hand in hand. Yeah. Business in the morning, entertainment in the evening, and no conflict. Right. As soon as you put a condo in the middle of all that , we're done. That's why we're struggling in Wynwood, and that's why I bought up so much real estate. You didn't want that to happen. At least, it's not going to happen in my properties.
Right. Okay. So I had to protect the neighborhood, in I had a grand vision of a holistic master plan that I was implementing piece by piece. Yes, I can build a condominium, but there are millions of developers building them. Yes. What you're doing is much riskier. I mean, it takes a lot of effort to create an ecosystem.
It's more difficult. It's much riskier, but it's much more profitable. Yes. But to go build a condominium... I'm not going to compete with Perez in building condos. For that matter , I'm collaborating with him. I mean, why would I reinvent the wheel ? You can just invest with them. I mean, I'm bringing them into my neighborhood, they become a piece of the puzzle, you know?
So your tax bill on this deal is going to be huge. How are you going to avoid that? That's why I... Okay. If I have to pay taxes, I'm happy to do it, because the tax market in America is not that high. Yes. And that's fine. About 50% for you? Excuse me? 50%? No. Oh, probably not in Florida, but yeah, I understand.
23%. Federal tax. We pay in Florida, we only pay federal, 23%. So it's not that big of a bill. Okay. But again , fortunately or not, as developers and property owners, we have too many loopholes to reduce that tax liability. Yeah. That's why I started a series of commercial building purchases . Because you knew this deal was coming up.
Yeah, of course, to do the tax swap. Right. So this commercial building fits perfectly into my vision. Got it? Because the community needs a place to work and a place to relax. Yeah. So it was perfect. It also gave me the liquidity to do more things in the neighborhood and stuff. I'll ask you again, tell me exactly what you plan to do with downtown Miami.
Make it the coolest, the coolest America's neighborhood. And you do that, I mean, you pick the right restaurants. You almost got Balthazar. It's amazing. You have Blue Ribbon. But yeah, there's a "but," you pick the right places. These are just great brands. But it's not just restaurants, it's also retail that we need to work with, which we have n't really gotten to yet because we needed to we needed to create an atmosphere because the street had been closed for nine years.
Yeah. And you couldn't get anyone to even walk down that street. Wow. See? Yeah. So it was really, and also the pooling of ownership, and getting everything together and creating a vision. So we have, you know, a few projects I can share with you and stuff. And let me ask you this: you mentioned that sometimes the city tries to slow you down, not moving fast enough in what you're doing.
trying to slow me down. They're slowing us down as developers, like like like like like business here . Yeah. In everything they do, there's bureaucracy, huge bureaucracy . These politicians in general, you see how easy it is to buy them, right? They're bribed and they get into this groupthink mentality.
And they're like, we're going to think this way because I have donors, big donors, who, you know, want me to think this way. Why not get involved in this, where you just, well, I mean , the checks don't have to be that big to get these guys to take your call and do your errands at City Hall. Why not do that?
Okay, first of all, I gave money to some of them and I still do. But it makes me sick . Yeah. Because you give them money and then they don't even talk to you after that. And then they call you in the next election. Okay, but the whole system needs to change. We're talking about a systemic problem. It's not about giving a bribe to this or that.
to another. It's really a bribe to go and That's 100% yes. It's, it's a bribe. The whole campaign finance process needs to be reformed. It's a bribe. And they need to be paid enough so that they don't have to rely on it. Yes. There are city officials, and there's bureaucracy. The bureaucracy dictates everything.
Yeah. Let's say I call Francis and say, Francis, I have this problem. You know, Francis will get involved, and they may not get involved. The bureaucracy is against it, because how did you get the mayor here in the first place? Of course. That's why I never call him. With any of my problems. You're both going to get in trouble.
Moishe, thank you very much. Congratulations on that. This is a huge event. It confirms that you are truly a city builder and a community builder. You know, one project after another. I look forward to seeing what you do with downtown Miami. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining us. in the next issue of " Coffee Conversations".
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