저자: Kevin · 외국인
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그랜트 카돈 등 부동산 신디케이터의 수수료 구조(취득·처분 1%, 자산운용 1%, 성과보수 35%→20%)를 비판하고, 펀드·리츠·뱅가드 상품도 높은 수수료가 숨어 있다고 주장. 수수료 합계는 투자 수익의 약 20~40%에 달할 수 있다고 설명. 대안으로 소액 자기 자금으로 일반 주택을 사서 임대하는 방식을 권장. 특정 자산의 가격 방향 예측은 없음.
다듬은 글
react to parts of a video I made five years ago on Grant Cardone and Cardone capital and since then there have been some changes so in this video not only are we going to review what was true back then and how that compares to fundrise and Vanguard and REITs and otherwise but then we're going to talk about how some things have changed some of the new fees which are a bit lower but why we'll talk about debt and we'll talk about what you should do going into 2024 here obviously not as personalized Financial advice but as perspective for you to consider them so let's get started with a throwback to over five years ago benefit to having an exit strategy is Grant gets to make money on his website he tells you exactly what the fees are for his business and the business model anytime a property is acquired Grant takes a 1% fee anytime a property s sells Grant takes a 1% fee and to manage the investment Grant takes another 1% fee so let's do an example with this $32 million deal $32 million $8 million invested let's be generous and say the fee is based on the $8 million invested in under control and not on the 32 million because the numbers would be ridiculous then and maybe they are ridiculous 1% of $8 million is $80,000 on purchase $80,000 to Grant and we put the deal under contract like Bang you just tell me what your terms are and I'll give them to you whatever you want I'll give it to you H I love that analogy so that right there that little cut that I did what over five years ago here is actually really important for understanding one of the biggest downsides of a real estate syndicator so understand this when somebody gets paid money to buy real estate and to sell real estate what do you think their motivation is it's to buy and sell real estate estate so if they're a real estate fund manager and they're incentivized to buy and sell making you pay 1% every time they do that then their goal is to tell you how great it is to constantly be buying and selling real estate the reality is buying and selling real estate is extremely expensive every time you sell you have to rely on the market moving in your direction you have to rely on the buyer doing their due Dil inspections and getting financing you have to pay agents fees escro fees title fees it's a disaster and it's very expensive but it's how syndicators make money and so that's why that little aside there where cardone's kind of like hey you give me the terms I'll give them to you of course you're not incentivized as a syndicator really to get a good deal you're incentivized to deploy Capital One of the big downsides of a syndication but let's keep listening in to some of the comment interor for the management every single year $80,000 to Grant and upon the sale of the property $80,000 to Grant uh on that $8,000 a year for management what a lot of the fund managers do and Cardone I've seen this in some of his ppms as well maybe not all of them but some of them uh what I've seen is what they'll essentially say is we're going to not charge the management fee for say 10 years and that will make it look like we can send you more cash flow on a monthly basis then when we go to sell the property we're going to take all those 10 years worth of management back at that point and so then what you're left with at the end is even smaller because you weren't paying 10 years worth of management even though you owed it it's there's there's so many fees in real estate it just rubs me the wrong way you're the one to decid to work for 1% don't tell me man oh my god dude don't oh my God me this is funny because Cardone here is making fun of real estate brokers working for 1% meanwhile he's literally collecting 1% on everything he can you're the one that picked that freaking job and then you wonder well I mean okay so there's not that big of an incentive to sell a property right no no there there is we're getting to that what's brilliant about that 1% in the middle that kind of slides in there as in not the 1% to purchase and find the property or 1% to sell the property is that's not to manage the building that management expense oh no no no no that's coming out of the Investor's pockets for what it costs to op at the building right so it's not a management fee it's a management fee to manage the manager right so that's actually known as an asset management fee when you hear AUM or advisory fee or asset management fee I want you to think how much is the building and then it's 1% generally of that building cost that's the asset management fee now somebody has to get paid for dealing with the tenants doing the leases dealing with the repairs and the complaints and the tenants the toilet that's all that nonsense okay that is the property management fee so when you hear Cardone taking the 1% management fee it's actually 1% as a management fee to manage you the investor your money and pick up the phone go hey property manager how's the property doing not actually doing Property Management himself that's a very big difference people forget about you're actually paying for two managers every single year that means if you have a 400 unit building there's going to be an on-site management company that company is going to get a fee and Grant takes 1% of that $8 million to manage that management company and again every PPM is written differently the example we're using in this video is 1% of 8 mil which is the equity in the deal most of these management fees are charged on the total asset under management not the equity those little 1% fees everywhere they add they add they add they add they add they make the syndicator rich now let's talk about the real killer as to why the exit strategy is the best business model Grant has ever come up with and I'm so excited for him but you should know about it and it's not only him who does this syndicators across the world do this I figured to try to clarify some of what's going on so you can understand the Brilliance of this scheme for Grant Cardone but how expensive it is for the investor I thought I would show you how this looks over a 10-year period of time uh and then I'll explain some of the differences between you know what a syndication is and like a read or whatever uh as well as how these fees are different from what you would expect regarding a property so first this section right here this is just the fund this is like similar to the Cardone fund structure which is a real estate syndication let's say you bought a building for a100 million and by year 10 it was worth double which would be great okay like great timing the fed's printing money real estate prices are going up most of that's going to be luck especially since a lot of these you know buyers of multif family buildings and syndicates they don't really care about getting a good deal up front as we heard Cardone say we play that little clip like bang you just tell me what your terms are and I'll give them to you whatever you want I'll give it to you just tell me your terms and I'll buy the deal that's what they're looking for because they're trying to deploy Capital because they don't really care about doing work on the deal usually they just want to raise the funds and then hold the funds because that's how you make money because watch if you acquire a $100 million deal and you take 1% Commish as a syndicator you make a million bucks instantly for acquiring it then usually what the syndicators do is they defer their property management for 10 years their revenues for 10 years to make the cash flow appear higher and then they collect that when they sell at the end so that way it seems like they're Distributing more and remember these are Asset Management fees not Property Management fees that's very different asset management is like managing the manager you're managing the money not the tenants so it's your a fee and so 1% per year for 10 years is $10 million assuming the property is just $100 million property until you sell it and it's worth 200 uh and then you're going to take 35% of the gain so 100 to 200 you'll take 35% of that on sale which will be 35 million approximately I'm shaving off like realtor fees and stuff like let's just say we're netting 200 here right uh and then you get another 1% on disposition which would be another $2 million so now all of a sudden when you put all of these fees together on a 10-year hold a syndicator who potentially has zero of their own money in the game they may initially and then they get bought out by their investors so they pretty much just ride for free with your money they could be making roughly 50% of the deals long-term profit because look at this a million up front 2 million at the back acquisition disposition 10 mil for for the management of the money plus 35 million for the sale gain that's nearly 50% of the entire gain $47 million in fees but it's not just that then they also write in all of our administrative funds the secretary work in the office the investor relations people that we have working to manage the money like all of the the legal reimbursements for the filing to be able to raise the money in the first place those are usually all additional reimbursements plus you get travel reimbursements in these syndications like if you really want to make money off of other people's money doing relatively little other than fundraising and then picking deals a syndication is a fantastic way in a brilliant way like you can't you can't shade it because it's just like you make so much money with it a brilliant way to make a lot of money but not as an investor it's a brilliant way to make money if you're a syndicator I personally don't like this because I think that's unfair to the people risking their Capital it's way too expensive way too expensive so I'm not a big fan of this that's a syndication so for me when I hear Syndicate whether it's the 8020 model or it's 65 35 I'm not the biggest fan these Partnerships no go people get excited because they're like oh but I get a K1 and I can depreciate that just complicates your taxes you don't necessarily want K1 it's more complicated anyway what's also important to remember is that these syndication fees are different from your actual property fees usually when we look at a property we like to say that a building has expenses known as Timmer t i mm urur plus d plus I property taxes Insurance maintenance management utilities reserves depreciation and interest all of those those expenses here in Orange are not part of The Syndicate fee like operating the building the property manager for the building the repairs for the building all of that still comes out of the investor cash flow on the deal so you just get less of a yield on the deal because you're really paying two property managers here the money manager and the property manager so those are syndications you can see this a lot with Partnerships as well very expensive in my opinion you do get companies like fund rise who have tried to make this a little bit less expensive and what they try to argue is that they just take a 0 uh or or .15 uh fee which is basically 15 basis points so if you multiply by a percentage it would look something like this but the reality is fundrise charges 15 basis points for the actual advisory fee they call it and then they charge another 85 basis points for the asset management so they're also charging the same 1% per year they're also charging 1% on acquisition and often they're charging one or 1 to 2% on loans or construction that they're doing as well so the fees are actually way higher for fundrise than it makes it seem like because in addition to paying these the 1% here the annual 1% over here plus the construction and lending fees and disposition fees or realtor fees or whatever in addition all that you're still paying the property expenses now fundrise and I think this is totally wrong like it's almost scammy when when you do this fundrise says oh but you know vanguard's uh uh re fund or whatever or real estate fund charges maybe 15 basis points oh well we charge 15 basis points as well again that looks like this if you're going to run it as a percentage right and by the way I didn't mean to put this little percent sign here because if you multiply by 0.15 it already does that for you so ignore that little percent there but wait a minute the same problem exists with Vanguard because fundrise is taking your 15 bips and putting it into an expensive management fee setup but with vangard they're putting you into rats and builders that also often have 8020 split models or asset under management fees built into them so like it's literally just fee burying under fee burying and the more you go through the paperwork the more you're like you're just getting feed to death now maybe you could find a Reit which uh Grant card on for example likes to poop on REITs I don't really understand why because you get preferred dividends on them he's like oh well you own paper you don't actually own the property bro your K1 ownership interest is the same it's a piece of paper the title for your car is a piece of paper the deed for your house is a piece of paper the share certificate of a real estate investment trust which is can be publicly listed or not is a piece of paper like they're all paper theoretically they represent an underlying asset that is real like real estate or sometimes in the case of reats you could have mortgage reats but a what you really have to do is you have to look if like if you're investing in a Vanguard real estate fund you have to look at the underlying companies and go well what fees are they charging because if you're in REITs that have the 8020 models or all these asset under management fees you're spending a lot of money on all of this as well so the reason I'm bringing light to this is uh is is really just because people keep sending me emails and messages and DMS they say Kevin can you explain all of these fees because obviously you're running a housing startup where you buy fixer uppers uh and you rent them out whether they're multif family or single family you're looking for wedge deals wedge deals is basically buying deals under market value we're not trying to time the market we just buy properties under uh market value uh and so people are like well well are you a Syndicate no are you a re no are you fundrise no we're we're none of those we're not any of those and I'm not even fundraising for money in this video or whatever I'm just trying to provide value and perspective we're trying to build really a competitor to like you know the ey buyer models like uh you know we think we could basically bankrupt Open Door okay that's like a three billion doll company now we think we can bankrupt them we don't think they're a great company uh you know red fin when Zillow was it we think we can do better than those companies so I'm not here to to talk funds uh and if we ever did any kind of Fund in the future I personally have an inspiration to say how can I take all of these non-property related fees and basically make the fees zero so that way you basically change the game of investing in real estate where like imagine if somebody actually provided a fund product in the future where there were legit no fees like you go through the whole PPM and it's like damn there really are no fees it'd be such a game Cher because everybody's taking so so much freaking money in fees now obviously then people are like well how do you make money how do you charge no fees well how house heack makes money is we buy good deals like we actually put the work in to not pay market value like a lot of the rats or syndications do but we actually try to buy a good deal under market value and now all of a sudden you have a market value deal that's fixed up stabilized rented out no fees that's the difference so uh there is absolutely an opportunity to have uh zero Fee real estate uh investing out there but it doesn't exist today uh you know we don't even have that today it's something that I think is is a goal we can Aspire towards and I think there's a huge opportunity there now let's consider the revised fees the updated fees because now it's really expensive to do real estate consider this you got a 7% property yield back in the day with a 2 and 1/2% mortgage you've got free cash flow of 4 1/2% potentially that's a great deal but if today you're buying a 4 and A2 cap property because prices went up and all of a sudden you're paying 7% interest only in interest you're actually negative 2 and a half% on that deal now I'm not the biggest fan of negative cash flow but there are times that actually Mak sense if you believe the property value can appreciate or will immediately appreciate more in value that is remember there are multiple ways to make money from Real Estate there's making money from the cash flow and then there's making money from the appreciation of the building above and beyond whatever it takes to actually maintain it because if you don't maintain it it depreciates but otherwise let's consider Grant card own's new and revised fees let's say because it's harder to raise money now Grant card own raises $50 million and he leverages that 3x so you have a $150 million deal Grant cardone's still going to take that 1% 1% acquisition is based on the actual property value which is is $1 1.5 million let's say he could double it at some point we'll call it after 10 years which would be great leverage depreciation fantastic 1% of this we're going to take $3 million over here for Cardone now the management fee is going to be based on the equity which would be 500k at this number but if we double then uh when we go to sell this building assuming we do an interest only loan we're still going to have $150 million of debt but we should now have $150 million of equity and that's the benefit of Leverage the benefit of Leverage here is you get a potentially tripled the money in the deal that's not bad if the whole building doubles in value right so you could potentially have a triple that on the equity up to $150 million so that means the management fees would be anywhere between $500,000 to $1 1.5 million let's make the math easy and just assume it's $1 million per year for 10 years therefore $10 million now we have an example of the total fees pre waterfall with debt in this case the total fees would be $14.5 million on a $150 million deal uh that so far isn't that bad it's like almost like a 10% Venture Capital Carry right but Cardone has now a new fee it used to be 35% probably still is for the old funds but because interest rates are so high and it's harder to raise money for Real Estate it looks like cardones reduced this to the classic 8020 model law of supply and demand Can't Get Enough investors you lower your fees so now Cardone is pushing for a 20% waterfall which in this case the gain on the deal could be $150 million say everything works out perfectly 20% of that gain n a fees would be about $30 million so now we're going to add these together here and we're going to realize that Cardone on this deal is still pulling about $44.5 million in fees which is basically the entire amount that investors first invested in the deal which if we consider it on a math basis it probably works out to splitting costs 7030 investor 70% uh and Cardone 30% roughly if we are able to double the property value so this is a lot better than 50/50 now keep in mind there's still going to be reimbursements this assumes you have cash flow taking on debt in this environment and it assumes the property building value can double this is still a lot of money for moving people's money into a building and then waiting for leveraged appreciation to do its work work and remember with leverage comes risk as well so this gives us an updated look on the fees now does that change anything in terms of what you should be doing probably not let's talk about that the reason I say probably not is because quite frankly you could find real estate investment trusts or other funds that don't charge you nearly a third of your profits to go leverage real estate most re have debt and that's because they're doing the work of Leverage for you and they're dealing with the tenants and toilets for you you still have to be careful though a lot of these rates can still charge you somewhere around 20% just run the scenario I just showed you twice Cash basis leverage basis and look for the fees fees really add up heavily and so it's generally not a surprise for you to end up paying between 20 to 40% investing in real estate opportunities with somebody else doing all the work for you personally I would like to try to figure out how to get all of this down to zero or as close to zero as possible that's a dream of mine and a goal of mine we don't have that at this point so we're not fundraising for anything in this video or whatever we're just trying to add perspective so what's the best thing though and I'll never ever ever take this away from somebody what is the best thing to do in my opinion not as personalized Financial advice for you uh but in someone's situation well for the vast majority of people with a net worth of under 500 K to a million dollar one of the best ways to start is actually buy real estate yourself I'm a big big big big fan of finding something that you could turn into a rental yourself don't over improve real estate don't buy funky properties next to highways busy roads under high tension power lines or with funky additions just buy yourself a normal three-bedroom two bath don't over improve it put 10% down 5% down 15% down something like that with a a 30-year fixed trade mortgage at a payment that you can afford don't overextend and when you get in don't go remodel everything it is way easier to save money by saying no to remodeling something than it is to try to get a discount on your vendor that you hired to do some work for you way easier just to say no upfront so buy real estate and then when you move rent it out now you have your own leveraged appreciation and by default by not paying syndicators the fees you're up probably 20 to 40% on your own version of Leverage depreciation and since you have a 30-year fixed rate mortgage you're not even in a situation where you're paying an interest only loan that's doing payable in 5 to 10 years instead the house is fully paid off after 30 years you never have to refinance if you can afford that payment it doesn't change there's no margin called the loan doesn't get called it's a much safer option for somebody getting started now I've got a lot of videos on the channel of exactly how to get started and how to buy wedge deals go to the little playlists on the channel you could see all the archived real estate videos there's some really cool ones but look I'm I'm a really big big big big believer that if you're just now working on building your wealth you've got to stay away from fees the fees will absolutely destroy you instead do everything you can to get into real estate one of the best things to do is buy it yourself if if you don't want to buy real estate yourself look for something that gives you that lowcost diversification the danger here though is if you throw money into a Vanguard real estate fund remember they might be throwing your money into funds that also have those 20 to 40% fees so be careful about that like you're paying Vanguard to kind of be the distributor for you right uh so look for the best options for you I I I I think at this point there aren't that many great options I wish I could recommend one that I thought was was better uh so we'll see maybe we we'll save that for a future video but for now consider diversifying into real estate yourself and be aware that even the syndicators are starting to have to lower their fees but even at the lower numbers they're still ridiculously expensive thanks so much for watching and I can't believe that after five and a half or almost six years here pretty much nothing's changed it's still a glorious business model for Cardone
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